Curse

Red Locust · Feb 15, 2006, 11:39 PM // 23:39

I'm sure anyone who has observed a few gvg battles will notice striking similarities between a lot of the builds currently in use. Creativity is at an all-time low; it literally takes around 5 seconds to look at a list of 8 players and guess as to what each of them is running...and 9 times out of 10 you'd be completely correct. It's removed absolutely any mystery as to what the other team is running; they might as well give you a list of the skills each enemy is running, and you wouldn't learn much that you didn't already know.

Tombs is even worse; one out of every three teams is the exact same IWAY you've seen a thousand times before. The other two teams are most likely energy-denial builds with two or three mesmers and one warrior, and some form of spike (usually ranger spike).

For the sceptical readers out there, let's take a look at examples:

- R/?: Often coming in the r/me variety, these guys are always the crippling shot spammer with apply poison, distortion, a savage or distracting shot (or both), occasionally even blackout/drain enchant and a speed buff (storm or dodge). But almost all their time is spent spamming cripshot and reapplying poison.
In tombs, if you see one of these guys, he's almost always oath shot spamming spirits, coupled with interrupts. If you see two or more of these guys, they're ranger spiking with read the wind, dual shot and punishing/savage shot, or attempting to trap.

- E/Mo: The beloved flashbot, this individual uses ether prodigy to spam the living tar out of high-cost skills such as blinding flash, enervating charge and heal party. When not doing any of the above, he likes to engage in some spiking in the form of lightning orb and strike. One of the slots is usually a utility skill such as windborne, gale or even a ward. Also comes in the E/Me variety for distortion abuse.

- W/E: Ah, the warrior ele. This guy is the extreme example of creativity, in that you can pretty much tell his whole skillbar by looking at what weapon he's using. Axe? Get ready for a gale lock, followed by eviscerate->executioners->axe rake. Usually hunt in packs of two or three. You also see W/R which are using TF (unless it's tombs IWAY, in which case they're using TF, charm animal and a spirit).

- Mo/N: Boon prot with OoB, RoF, mend ail, guardian, holy veil, divine boon, and two wild cards (usually CoP and prot spirit). If not, it's some sort of heal monk with the standard heal spells (there isn't really much choice here). If not, it's a Mo/Me with mantra of recall and distortion along with the above skill list.

- Me/Mo: Rezbot with usually martyr and dom skills (diversion, shatter enchant, energy burn). Since ANet killed the inspiration line's e-denial ability, all the mesmers are domination nowadays, with a power drain or drain enchant for energy management.
In tombs you see the occasional hex builds with two or three mesmers spamming illusion hexes, often with a necro spamming his SS/faintheartedness/para bond/whatever.

Most people will tell you these are solid builds, but can you really call them just "solid" if such an overwhelming majority of gvg builds use the abovementioned builds exclusively? And what does that say about the balance in a game with ~450 skills where you can count most of the skill combos used on one hand?

Funk_Styles · Feb 16, 2006, 12:13 AM // 00:13

this is why i stick to RA/TA, dispite the wave of newbs created by christmas, i love the creative freedom 4 on 4 arenas spawn
though with the freedom of creativity you have MANY and HORRIBLE drawbacks, these include:
mending, MENDING ARRRGGGHHHHHH, wammos, usually using healinghands or glads defense for elite, and healing breeze and bons defense/dolyak for annoying griefing powers, and since it seems im the only one in RA/TA that brings enchant removal, these builds usually cause matches to last 5 minutes more then they should
IW mesmers, this is a strong build against newbs, but up against poeple like me, you cant cast that cover enchant fast enough since all these newbs spend every point in illusion and tactics, none in fast cast
fire eles, these can be good in the hands of pros with spells like meteor, flameburt, phoenix, rodgorts invocation, immolation, the 3 second delay hex spell (dont remember name :P ) but 99% of the people using these builds are using meteor showers at the wrong times, firestorm, searing heat, flare, fireball at wrong times and spamming it like its killing someone instead of waiting for them to bunch up
and builds they seen in obs mode like its magically going to make them uber

Goonter · Feb 16, 2006, 02:01 AM // 02:01

I have to agree.

I look at a team line up and, like you say, in 5 seconds know what the skill bar and roles are for any givin team.

There are few exceptions.

Im not sure if its due to imbalance, or if its because people cant help to think if the copy the builds of the top guilds they will have more success with it, as opposed to a build that they created themselves.

I favor to believe it is more of a copy cat thing than imbalance.
I think more people are intrested in the actual win and not the creative win so they mimick winners.

twicky_kid · Feb 16, 2006, 02:16 AM // 02:16

I think is mostly due to how long its been since skill changes. We have not had a huge skill change since the Smite nerf.

Wait till the tournement is over. Gale, distortion, and orders are on the chopping block. Personally I'm hoping for more skill buffs then nerf. Just bring other skills up the current power lvl and it wouldn't be out of balance.

I think necros are going to receive the biggest nerf since their dmg has been untouched from release.

Esrever · Feb 16, 2006, 02:57 AM // 02:57

Agreed with twicky. There has not been any major skill changes, and won't be until the tourney is over. We're kinda stuck as it is, with the most efficient builds and skills staying the same for a long while. Disagree on the Necro Damage nerf. If anything, the entire class needs a buff.
The damnable Hex Helm is also limiting the options. It's a bit like old Nature's Renewal, but on a slightly smaller scale. With anti-warrior hexes mostly useless in top-level GvG, and conditions generally being easy to remove, Warriors are running the show now. This leads to the Cripshots and Blindbots being used to stop them.

Thom · Feb 16, 2006, 03:00 AM // 03:00

There is a combination of a few factors at play here. In testing it is near impossible to work out all imbalance of all skills while making all classes independently playable and interesting. There was some stuff which was clearly imbalanced and was fixed over the summer (this wasn't all nerfing, I remember fire getting some love). As it stands now there are a few skill which may be broken (orders/gale/IWAY), but none of these skills are "clearly" broken and a slight nerf could make them utterly useless. For example, giving a fail % for gale at levels <8 would reduce its effectiveness.

If you take a game theoretic perspective, it is not suprising that there are a small number of of optimal solutions to a very complex and well balanced system. If one skill or skill bar if found to be weakly dominant(that is at least as good as all alternatives in ), then your defenses/counters will be best responses to that strategy and things collapse to a very small number of practical offenses, utility, counters and defenses. Now this works from the defensive end and utility too, if a defense or counter is dominant this will greatly affect the number of builds you will use.

Now if you use a weaker set of criteria (the elimination of weakly dominated strategies--or not running a build when there exists another build which preforms better in all situations), you still get a very small number of builds which are viable. For example, arguably the current ranger spike dominates past iterations of ranger spike. It could also be argued that ranger spike dominates all other pure spikes when facing pressure groups because it is durable, efficient, flexible and no easier to counter than other pure spikes, especially when you consider that most dominant monk counters (backfire, edrain) will counter effectively spell spikes. This will effect what type of monks and counters you will plan against spike (since you expect ranger spike over blood spike). While the example is a bit overstated, we are at the point we are at in the game because it is better than alternatives that we have had time to explore.

Another explanation is this: lets say you have the option of building IWAY or a build that is balanced and fares about as well as IWAY against the field. This is taking IWAY as "the standard" in tombs, since it has proven rather durable in many situations. There exist plenty of builds which are "at least as good as" IWAY, but nothing has unseated IWAY so it remains the standard. Given the choice of the two equal builds, everyone knows IWAY and IWAY has a much shorter set up times for a PUG. Given these costs, it doesn't pay to be creative. Same with your typical gale warrior builds in GvG, you know you are not disadvantaged against other gale warrior builds and you know that the build has been proven "the standard" against the field, so there really isn't compelling reason to jump to a less known buid which is an equivalent.

Basically, it is no suprise that there is clustering among builds. There are enough counters that if any build becomes "too" dominant, blatant counters builds will become worth running. A-net will make some changes for next cycle that will throw things out of the current equalibrium.

twicky_kid · Feb 16, 2006, 04:02 AM // 04:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esrever

Disagree on the Necro Damage nerf. If anything, the entire class needs a buff.

If they don't change their dmg then I know a build right now that spike 2 targets at the same time with no aoe dmg. No other class can do that.

Did I also mention it can be done every 4 seconds

wheel · Feb 16, 2006, 05:56 AM // 05:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

If they don't change their dmg then I know a build right now that spike 2 targets at the same time with no aoe dmg. No other class can do that.

Did I also mention it can be done every 4 seconds

It's not a spike in that it can be easily infused. There's a difference between a 0 to .5 second spike and a 1.5 second spike.

Ranger spike, however, is capable of spiking two targets at once. It's not extremely sustainable and a single RoF negates the spike, but unmitigated, the spike can kill two targets.

Elrodien · Feb 16, 2006, 10:11 AM // 10:11

I think its not so much the skills causing the lack of creativity but the players themselves are stuck in a rut. People see a a certain build and stick to it rigidly. If you try something new, people call you a noob and leave in disgust. I have seen this so many times in Heroes....

Only through a PvP guild can you let loose with your creativity, but otherwise you are gonna be stuck with around 8 or 9 team builds that most are too scared to modify.

There is hope though, with the new game on the way. The two new proffessions should give us all something to think about when thinking up new builds

asdar · Feb 16, 2006, 12:07 PM // 12:07

The classes are balanced and that's important.

Battles are fast and furious. I've seen Top ranger spikers beat top ten teams and Iway as well. We haven't seen the trickle down from the necro spiking in GvG yet.

I'm confident that people will come up with a better counter to the typical copycat build that's in gvg now that the number one team on the ladder uses.

Heck, the expansion's just around the corner and that will certainly shake things up.

tafy69 · Feb 16, 2006, 01:20 PM // 13:20

Jeez the poster just posted our GvG build....

Oh and well things arent very balanced at the moment which leads to most teams running simular builds

Need 2 Warriors for the team for damage and split
Blinding Flash > Other Warrior counters (Since they resistent to Hexes blind is all you have!)
Mesmer Secondary > Rest (Distortion)
Necro Secondary for Monks (OOB is that good)
Mesmer primarys for Utility (Martyr, hard res, hex removal)
Eles for secondary utility on expensive monk spells (HP, Convert Hexes, Aegis)

Can you see why builds starting to look the same?

minor · Feb 16, 2006, 01:24 PM // 13:24

There seems to be a thought here that copycats are just lazy. I disagree i think the reason ppl use top teams builds is to win plain and simle. Take boon prot for example; are there other monk builds out there? Yes but theres a reason eveyone and his brother from the top of the ladder down runs one, it works.
Basically why are teams that aren't high ranked, don't have a smurf guild and a bunch of players to test and refine their builds, going to waste hours and losses testing when they can run something everyone knows can win?

Symbol · Feb 16, 2006, 01:35 PM // 13:35

Yeah, it's a little late to be writing this off as a FoTM or people being "unimaginative". Builds have been mostly static for months now.

I think there are going to be some serious balance changes rolling around after the WCs finish.

Akathrielah · Feb 16, 2006, 03:13 PM // 15:13

Well one of the problems with game balance in Guild Wars is that everytime ANet decides to rebalance the game they are too heavy handed and basically take a powerful skill and reduce it to a joke.

Ether Renewal was undoubtly broken and overpowered, now it's undoubtly pathetic and isn't worth a skill slot. Chain Lightning was no where near the level of Ether Renewal or Spirit Spam, and was simply totalled into oblivion. Energy Drain? Gone completely. While these skills should not be brought back to where they were in strength (except for chain lightning perhaps), currently they are just plain useless.

I am aware that ANet does buff skills, but more often than not it isn't simply enough to make a skill viable. I am filled with anticipation for the post-GWWC rebalance, but if ANet keeps on trashing skills you'll simply end up with a metagame of "whatever is left".

Another big thing is the metagame, which is basically dictated by the top 20 (if that), and is hampered by the lack of a reasonable way of experimenting with new builds. If you currently want to try out a new build without decking your rating you have to create a smurf and win enough matches to get the smurf to a decently high rank (testing builds against low ranked guilds is useless) which more or less fudges the ladder.

Last is quite simply the lack of competition, the competitive ladder is basically what the top 20? top 50?

Burakus Lightwing · Feb 16, 2006, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elrodien

I think its not so much the skills causing the lack of creativity but the players themselves are stuck in a rut. People see a certain build and stick to it rigidly. If you try something new, people call you a noob and leave in disgust. I have seen this so many times in Heroes..
builds

I think this says it all.

Red Locust- great post. I agree that there are so many similar "cookie cutter" builds being used. I don't think this is limited to GvG either. You can TA and see many of the same setups, even RA has many of the same builds, it's ridiculous.

Thom had this to say- It could also be argued that ranger spike dominates all other pure spikes when facing pressure groups because it is durable, efficient, flexible and no easier to counter than other pure spikes, especially when you consider that most dominant monk counters (backfire, edrain) will counter effectively spell spikes. This will effect what type of monks and counters you will plan against spike (since you expect ranger spike over blood spike).

I hate to call for a nerf in this post, let alone ever, but why is it that CoP is a skill and not a spell? It can remove backfire without the monk taking damage?
I really feel that CoP is one of the most useful skills a monk has- more power to the monk. However, this skill should be made a spell and let that monk take damage. Taking down a monk with this skill is not impossible but it is extremely difficult. - Monks you can flame away

Anyway back to the topic. I completely agree that there are many similar builds/skill set-ups that are being used and any variance from the norm will only lead to you getting flamed for bringing in a build that you like and feel will work well with the team.
I also agree and hope that with factions some this will take care of itself.

Delillo · Feb 16, 2006, 07:23 PM // 19:23

"Balance" is a myth anyways. "Balance" is impossible.

ANet (or any developer) should always be striving for balance but realizes that acheiving it is an impossibility. In the end, any player or guild can run any build that anyone else can. That's balance. (and why DAOC and to a lesser extent WoW cannot be balanced). It's also what the OP is complaining about- that 95% of the playerbase is simply "standing on the shoulders of giants" when it comes to their builds.

ANet also counts on its player base to help determine balance. Again it is impossible for ANet to anticipate with any accuracy how the hundreds of skills in GW will be combined effectively. So it makes adjustments at given intervals. You may complain about the nature of the changes, but that, in itself, is part of the process.

To see how GW will evolve we need only look at one of the major influences on its design: collectible card games. A similar evolution occurs with CCGs where over time certain uber builds emerge and are tested in fire: the imbalances in the game (and certain skills/cards) are taken advantage of. The game threatens to become stale and then an expansion occurs wherein old imbalances are addressed and new imbalances are created.

It will be an interesting time after the expansion as expeimentation and creativity will be rewarded... for a time. But the idea that a game can reach a zen-like state of balance in which all skills/builds are equally viable will not happen. I know thats not what the OP is arguing for exactly. Would the OP be satisfied if there were 2x viable guild builds instead of the current x?

The player base will always mimic successful strategies- that is something that ANet can do nothing about. It is also my impression that the best guilds are also the most likely to experiment with new ideas and are not one trick ponies.

Akathrielah · Feb 16, 2006, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delillo

"Balance" is a myth anyways. "Balance" is impossible.

ANet (or any developer) should always be striving for balance but realizes that acheiving it is an impossibility. In the end, any player or guild can run any build that anyone else can. That's balance. (and why DAOC and to a lesser extent WoW cannot be balanced). It's also what the OP is complaining about- that 95% of the playerbase is simply "standing on the shoulders of giants" when it comes to their builds.

ANet also counts on its player base to help determine balance. Again it is impossible for ANet to anticipate with any accuracy how the hundreds of skills in GW will be combined effectively. So it makes adjustments at given intervals. You may complain about the nature of the changes, but that, in itself, is part of the process.

To see how GW will evolve we need only look at one of the major influences on its design: collectible card games. A similar evolution occurs with CCGs where over time certain uber builds emerge and are tested in fire: the imbalances in the game (and certain skills/cards) are taken advantage of. The game threatens to become stale and then an expansion occurs wherein old imbalances are addressed and new imbalances are created.

It will be an interesting time after the expansion as expeimentation and creativity will be rewarded... for a time. But the idea that a game can reach a zen-like state of balance in which all skills/builds are equally viable will not happen. I know thats not what the OP is arguing for exactly. Would the OP be satisfied if there were 2x viable guild builds instead of the current x?

The player base will always mimic successful strategies- that is something that ANet can do nothing about. It is also my impression that the best guilds are also the most likely to experiment with new ideas and are not one trick ponies.

I'm not so sure that a true parrallel can be drawn between card games and Guild Wars. Although they may be similar in some aspects, the environment and execution is rather different. Plus the number of strategies and combinations that can be drawn in some particular CCGs (Magic definately comes to mind) is staggering compared to Guild Wars.

ANet should be far more involved with the community when it comes to skill balance, albeit more selectively than in the past. Their heavy handed approach with many previously overpowered skills shows this.

I actually (foolishly) believe that this game can be (or very close to being) balanced, problem is I'm not sure if its possible or if ANet is willing to do it before Factions is released, which will open up another can of worms.

Red Locust · Feb 16, 2006, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delillo

"Balance" is a myth anyways. "Balance" is impossible.

ANet (or any developer) should always be striving for balance but realizes that acheiving it is an impossibility. In the end, any player or guild can run any build that anyone else can. That's balance. (and why DAOC and to a lesser extent WoW cannot be balanced). It's also what the OP is complaining about- that 95% of the playerbase is simply "standing on the shoulders of giants" when it comes to their builds.

Agreed, balance and perfection are unattainable. However, there should be an honest effort made to achieve a state as close to perfect balance as possible. When I look at the number of viable builds, that is not the impression I'm getting from this game.

Quote:

ANet also counts on its player base to help determine balance. Again it is impossible for ANet to anticipate with any accuracy how the hundreds of skills in GW will be combined effectively. So it makes adjustments at given intervals. You may complain about the nature of the changes, but that, in itself, is part of the process.

The minor adjustment to skills that ANet makes every few updates is definitely welcome, but not really a permanent solution. Sure, the first few weeks after the changes, people are still confused about what to run, and you start seeing some diversity. After that, however, it's back down to the small set of "proven good builds" and the large set of "bad builds".

Quote:

It will be an interesting time after the expansion as expeimentation and creativity will be rewarded... for a time. But the idea that a game can reach a zen-like state of balance in which all skills/builds are equally viable will not happen. I know thats not what the OP is arguing for exactly. Would the OP be satisfied if there were 2x viable guild builds instead of the current x?

That would be a start, yes. As it currently is, I'm sure few would disagree with me when I say that there is a very short list of very good skills and a very long list of very bad skills. Buffing shitty skills, nerfing overpowered skills, anything that would introduce more options to the game is a very welcome addition. The expasion is really my only hope for improvement; the two new classes, even if they offer only 4 new good builds, will at least shake things up and offer more combinations from that short list of "good builds".

Quote:

The player base will always mimic successful strategies- that is something that ANet can do nothing about. It is also my impression that the best guilds are also the most likely to experiment with new ideas and are not one trick ponies.

I actually think that it might be the other way around. With the exception of Rift's latest build (which IMO relies more on surprise and confusion than actual build strength), most of the top guilds will run the optimal build that gives them the best chance of success. And that desire for optimality leads right back to the short list of ideal builds.

Beqxter · Feb 16, 2006, 11:08 PM // 23:08

While I do think there's an awful lot of cookie-cutter builds out there, whenever I get depressed I watch a [Rift] match. Those guys are breaking all the PvP rules (pets! minions! fire eles! all of which receive much derision and scorn from the PvP "masters") and completely devastating their opponents with it. Yesterday I watched them flawless a rank 10 guild in 3.5 minutes - what was the r10 guild running? Gale warriors, Cripshot rangers, Boonprots - all the standards. Rift does use surprise and confusion, certainly, but with over 200 matches played in this season alone and a healthy amount of buzz about their build, it's not like it's THAT much of a surprise. It's my belief that they just use tactics that the copycats don't know how to counter, and use them well.

It is by observing matches like this that I think that MUCH (though by no means all) of the copycatting that we're seeing is really due to laziness on the part of the players. There are a set of strategies that "work" and can be learned by paying attention to these forums and observing the typical matches, and those emerge as the most popular.

Rebalancing will help stir things up, certainly. But what's really going to muck everything up is the 300 new skills coming along in Factions. And then the 300 new skills coming along in the game after that. With over 1,000 skills to choose from across 10 professions, what's the metagame going to look like a year from now? Absolutely nothing like what it looks like now.

Symbol · Feb 16, 2006, 11:50 PM // 23:50

IMO the current situation is due to a confluence of factors, none of which is particularly significant in other modes of player (PvE, 4vs4, tombs) but together cripple the number of effective builds:
1) The presence of broken items and or mechanics (HoD helm, exhaustion)
2) The lack of good non-elite energy management and the relatively high cost of direct damage spells for caster characters.

Fix 1) and you'll see hexes become viable warrior counters and Gale abuse should vanish. Fix 2) and you could actually see casters become a reasonable alternative to physical damage dealers in terms of applying pressure (not spiking, but constant dps)